Dealing with Nickel Batteries for off-grid homes
January 19th, 20121a. Re: Xantrex XW 40/24 charger – update
From: nfkinzie
1b. Re: Xantrex XW 40/24 charger – update
From: Steve Spence
1c. Re: Xantrex XW 40/24 charger – update
From: John J Maurer
2a. Re: Soda Ash batteries
From: Clarke2
2b. Re: Soda Ash batteries
From: Mel Riser
2c. Re: Soda Ash batteries
From: Wayne
2d. Re: Soda Ash batteries
From: Wayne
2e. Battery Making; Ni-Fe
From: Craig Carmichael
3a. Fusable link in battery cable?
From: ThornySahuaro
3b. Re: Fusable link in battery cable?
From: Steve Spence
3c. Re: Fusable link in battery cable?
From: ThornySahuaro
3d. Re: Fusable link in battery cable?
From: Steve Spence
4a. Re: Kick Starting a Heat Pump Compressor
From: Neil
Hi All,
My assignment today was to “restore system defaults,” in hopes everything would return to normal.
Since the system settings were refined by the designer, I searched the menus for all the custom settings and made notes on various parameters – so that I would be able to return them back to the way they had worked for three years. Since it has been cloudy and cold, I turned on the generator to boost the batteries while I took my time on the menus. Subzero tonight.
Then – following specific instructions on how to locate the option, deep in the menus, I pressed the button. . . . BLACK!
I found my operators manual and searched for how to restart my system – only to find a warning I highlighted in yellow almost three years ago – DO NOT RESTORE SYSTEM DEFAULTS WITH CHARGER RUNNING. Bummer.
One might think that they would have reminded me of that – either when the tech rep described how I should do it yesterday – or (even better) right on the menu line which describes the option. ”
TURN OFF THE CHARGER” Now, I will remember.
So, now I’ll see how good Schneider Electric is. [I certainly hope this is something like restoring flash memory - not a serious burnout.]
Thanks for your thoughts on this.
I’m glad that you confirm my expectations regarding what “load” is meant to quantify. It behaves just as you say – when the charger is not charging. There is no random meandering up and down (without someone turning switches, etc.).
The “load” I’m talking about is occurring even after I turn the main circuit breaker and totally disconnect the house panel and loads from my system – only when generator is on. No faults. No warnings.
I checked batteries and connections. Found one warm cable and tightened a bolt – but this may have been a few watts so I can’t see the difference in the load numbers.
I’m not at the unit right now but will try your experiments tomorrow and report.
Also, I’m pleased that Schneider reps seem to be taking a little more interest in my problem. They’re apparently stumped by the phenomenon – thinking the best explanation is the difficulty of measuring these currents accurately. Like me, however, they can’t explain why human ears can measure the acoustic results very clearly. The varying noise was what led me to the control panel to see what was going on. No meter required.
I appreciate your help and will keep you posted on my mystery – and what Schneider Electric does about it. My assignment for tomorrow is to “restore system defaults” and see if that solves the problem. I sure hope it’s that simple.
Norm,
I don’t have a XW4024 here but have played with them before. I’ll take a stab at thinking it through with you.
First off, are you getting your numbers from a SCP or directly from the unit’s display?
If you are using the SCP, the manual pretty clearly states that the power shown on line 3 is the “Power supplied to loads”. I don’t recall any wierdness on the one I played with. I would expect that number to be around 100 watts if you were lighting only a single 100w incandescent bulb, and 0 if you had your loads disconnected. In fact, I would think the inverter would fall back to its low power search mode (unless you have disabled that).
What happens with your battery current when you are watching it? It should be positive when the charger is supplying current to the battery and negative when the inverter is sucking power out of your battery. Does it wander around as well? Again, with no load, it should should be less an amp in search mode, and around two amps in invert mode with no load.
What happens to your load number when you plug a single 100w incandescent bulb in? Does your wandering 100-600 watt load change by 100?
Is the wandering load number only present when you are running your generator?
It seems a odd that it hasn’t thrown you a fault code, since it has about a million of them.
You should be able to go into the “Meters” screen and get another snapshot view of things, including the output L1 and L2 line current coming out of the inverter.
Hi All,
I’m building an offgrid cabin in central Vermont, hoping to retire there in few years. I’ve enjoyed reading and learning from this group but haven’t had much to contribute or much need to ask for help.
Recent cold and cloudy days have forced me to use generator more than usual and made me wonder about my system readings. Please help me understand whether there is something wrong with my charger – or just my aging brain.
I understand that the charger is only about 90% efficient and that somewhere around 10% of input power is used up in proper operation. When the house panel is disconnected and zero load is applied to the system, is it proper for the control panel to show a “load” of approximately 10% of the input wattage? A few days ago I thought my charger was sounding different (the normal “charging sound” seemed to vary up and down in volume more than usual), so I studied the readings more than usual and realized that this “load” was varying the same way.
[My 24V system uses 5500 W generator to charge 20 T105's when PV inadequate. At times the "load" varies fairly rapidly 100-600w.]
I’ve called the Xantrex (now Schneider) support number but after two 20 minute discussions and some experimentation with the settings and readings, they seem as confused as I am. They haven’t told me that this is a normal reading. This makes me think the “load” should not be so great when no house circuits are connected – and something must be wrong.
The latest Xantrex suggestion was to pull the unit out and ship it to them for testing. I’m not fond of this idea. Right now, I feel like I’ve waited a little too long for answers and hope someone here can help.
Thanks for your attention.
Don’t you hate it when stuff like that happens? The joys of being the
power company.
I don’t have a XW4024 here but have played with them before.
I’ll take a stab at thinking it through with you.
First off, are you getting your numbers from a SCP or directly
from the unit’s display?
If you are using the SCP, the manual pretty clearly states that
the power shown on line 3 is the “Power supplied to loads”. I
don’t recall any wierdness on the one I played with. I would
expect that number to be around 100 watts if you were lighting only
a single 100w incandescent bulb, and 0 if you had your loads
disconnected. In fact, I would think the inverter would fall back
to its low power search mode (unless you have disabled that).
What happens with your battery current when you are watching it?
It should be positive when the charger is supplying current to the
battery and negative when the inverter is sucking power out of your
battery. Does it wander around as well? Again, with no load, it
should should be less an amp in search mode, and around two amps in
invert mode with no load.
What happens to your load number when you plug a single 100w
incandescent bulb in? Does your wandering 100-600 watt load change
by 100?
Is the wandering load number only present when you are running
your generator?
It seems a odd that it hasn’t thrown you a fault code, since it
has about a million of them.
You should be able to go into the “Meters” screen and get another
snapshot view of things, including the output L1 and L2 line
current coming out of the inverter.
Best regards,
So is it completely brain dead? Even when you disconnect everything and bring it up fresh? That stinks.
Good luck getting the 122 pounds off the wall.
New guy here, mostly lurking, first post.
There’s some info on the Edison batteries in the files section here, including how to build them yourself.
Hello Wayne,
It’s all about NiFe batteries made by Edison. Please take a look:
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CD4QFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fps-survival.com%2FPS%2FBatteries%2FNiMH%2FIron-Nickel_Battery_2008.pdf&ei=15AWT-v_AYje4QSehKSiBA&usg=AFQjCNHl841jsw4oiAingzsm6Xmw3J28yQ&sig2=KTQevtrhMc_p5-l5Ds4MOg
- I was speaking to an old guy some years ago who showed me his old battery
bank that he used for his shack. It was some years ago and unfortunately
that guy is no longer with us. From memory the old batteries that got
from an old Telecom backup system were made using soda ash and, although
large and heavy, they were re-usable by washing out and refilling with
fresh soda ash.Dose anyone know anything about this type of battery as googling has come
up with nothing. Or maybe my memory has corrupted the facts and it is a
different chemical.Any help would be appreciated
Nickel Iron batteries use potassium hydroxide as the electrolyte… ( as opposed to sulfuric acid )
They have extremely long life, and you can refresh the electrolyte when they get tired.
They are expensive, heavy and last a lifetime. There are only a handful of manufacturers these days, with Zap of montana being one I am familiar with.
I reckon your on the money here Mircea. These batteries use caustic pot
ash and I reckon that would do the same as soda ash. Heaps of good
reading here.
Thanks so much to everyone that has replied with info. Now I need to
study up and see what the home workshop can come up with. I will keep the
group posted as I get results.
I’ve spent much time on this subject.
As for being heavy: Some larger Ni-Fe alkaline flooded “pocket cell”
batteries are lighter than lead-acid cells per watt-hour of energy.
And they can be discharged 80-90% before the voltage gets low (and
can be discharged – and left discharged – with little or no damage),
whereas lead-acid shouldn’t be discharged more than 50-60% (and
anyway will give drooping voltages beyond that), so the actually
usable energy per weight is substantially higher.
There are low, medium and high rate NiFe cells – think of ‘deep
cycle’ versus ‘car starter’. For heavy loads, they put out less
current for their size than PbPb or NiMH.
They’re being made in China. Changhong Batteries bought Varta’s NiFe
factory assembly line. (And now Europe is about set to ban Ni-Cd or
have done so. Some countries including China are also starting to ban
lead-acid.) I think larger NiFe’s worked out to about 500 $/KWH from
Changhong. A friend of mine made this site – it’s a good place to
start: http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/ . There’s a list of makers
at the bottom. He’s the Canadian contact for Changhong, but you can
also e-mail to and order straight from Changhong. The little 10
amp-hour cells (around 10$ plus shipping straight from Changhong),
are good to experiment with.
In North America Exide (lead-acid batteries) bought out the Edison
Battery co. and shut it down, 1970 or so, as people were becoming
interested in them for electric transport again. I don’t know
anything about the other makers.
KOH (potassium hydroxide) is the usual electrolyte. NaOH (sodium
hydroxide – I assume soda ash is another name) will also work, but
with less current capacity.
SAFETY NOTE: ‘soda ash’ and potassium hydroxide are caustic. They eat
skin and will blind you if you get it in your eyes, just about like
acid. (A ‘slimy’ feel means wash your hands right away.)
In India they’re experimenting with Ni-Fe dry cells (since 2004). The
energy density if mass produced should be just a little lower than
Ni-MH dry cells, maybe 60-80 WH/Kg, but the ingredients are cheaper.
(I notice they use Bi2S3 to reduce hydrogen gas generation in the
Fe/Fe(OH)2 electrode. I’m trying Sb2S3, tho in salt electrolyte – I
think it’ll work better.)
BTW there are also NiZn AA rechargeable dry cells. (Amazon.com was
cheapest) They’re 1.6 volts and should be good for high currents.
I’ve seen some instructions for making NiFe’s where the writer didn’t
know what he was doing. If you don’t know what pocket cells,
electrode briquettes, nickel hydroxide and iron hydroxide are after
reading the instructions for making them, you aren’t going to get
working batteries.
I have my own ‘book’ for salty electrolyte battery making. It’s still
very preliminary at this point, but I’ve just posted it on my site
because someone wanted to look at it. You could use my techniques to
do NiFe or NiZn alkaline, I think with no special issues. The salty
chemistries I’m trying should attain higher energy densities, but are
trickier.
Simple question, Is a fuse and disconnect required between the battery bank and inverter? If so what product is recommended and how would fuse rating be determined?
absolutely it is. the size depends on the inverter, and battery
voltage, but a 400 amp catastrophic fuse is common in smaller systems.
Go with at least double what your inverter can pull. A 3500 watt 48v
inverter can pull 72 amps, so at least a 150 amp fuse would be good.
Thanks Steve, that pretty much confirms what I thought. Where does one find a massive fuse holder that will work with 2-0 and larger welding cable?
http://www.altestore.com/store/Enclosures-Electrical-Safety/Overcurrent-Devices-Fuses-Breakers/Fuse-Fuseblocks/175A-Replacement-Class-T-Fuse/p9890/
wow – my cost as a contractor is a LOT less – keep looking.
It’s just a potential relay with a start capacitor – see my web site at http://www.neilorme.com/pics/potential.relay.ladder.jpg
The explanation is at http://www.neilorme.com/csr_motor.shtml
If you can’t find it for under $50, let me know.
NEIL
PS: They come in ranges like 1-5 tons, and 5+. If they claim to be “matched” to the unit, it’s BS.
On 1/17/2012 09:07P, Thomas wrote:
Thank You for the info. I was pondering this.
The OEM Lennox kick start #88M91 is ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY SEVEN US DOLLARS AND NINTY FIVE US CENTS! from discountfurnacefilter.com! (free shipping! yea! that makes me feel better)
I think I’ll go with this, even though it is many times the cost.
I really don’t want to know what Lennox wants to install one!
I suppose if I do it myself, that will void the warranty too!
If it’s the OEM part, they may not notice and I can just play dumb. (No Wise Cracks)
Tom M.
— In 12VDC_Power@yahoogroups.com, “patwade_1810″ wrote:
If you pull the cover on the control box inside the outdoor unit, there should be a schematic diagram. It should show “optional” equipment that you can add on to the unit when it is installed. But since most contractors are trying to get the price as low as possible they don’t let the consumer know about these.
Anyway, it should show a starting component. There are a lot of configurations. What’s important to know is that if you slap something on there off EBay or from Amazon you can void the warranty on the compressor, which is ten years now on most newer units.
I recommend putting what the manufacturer recommends on the compressor. Those universal hard start kits are OK for a time, but my HVAC experience was that they don’t last and, if you are still in warranty and have an issue, and the tech shows up and finds one—–VOID / TILT / GOTCHA!
And they do help the unit start quicker and supposedly prolong the life of the compressor. The industry standard (typically called a hard Start Kit) is a matched potential relay and start capacitor, matched to the specs of the compressor.
Hmm… The one I saw probably had the same terminal configuration as
the ‘double’ 6V ones in your links to fit the same lanterns, but it
was shorter top to bottom.
It was too short for “F”s – probably either “D” or “AA” height. I
wasn’t paying them much attention, I just passed by them on the
shelf. (I was buying current limiting resistors and a DC power
adapter for my LED light fixtures.)
I’ll look closer next time.
There’s a rectangular 12v also:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000ROFZFE/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=webconx&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B000ROFZFE
in addition to the double capacity 6v:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009V2QN/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=webconx&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00009V2QN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lantern_battery
I saw both sizes of lantern batteries together on a store shelf
yesterday – the 4 F cell size and the larger but shorter one. (Must
figure out how to take pictures with my cheap cell fone.)
=====
Sorry, but even the battery they used in the gag video (it’s called
gag productions), was a walgreens 6v (same size as all lantern
batteries) and only has 4 F cells inside. 6v lantern batteries are
all the same size. If anyone here on this group can show me a 6v
lantern battery with anything but f cells inside, I’d be interested
in seeing it.
A “D” is 34.2mm diam. x 61.5 mm long, the “F” is 33m x 91mm.
Dorcy makes a 4d adapter which allows you to drop four D batteries
directly in. Use the 11 amp hour NiMH “D” cells for super extra long
life!
http://www.dorcydirect.com/p-160-41-0805-4d-adapter.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0002LR50A/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=webconx&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B0002LR50A